I’ve been asserting this thesis for a while, that both sexes are less attractive to the other. One point you’re missing here is a general decline in social skills, driven by screen time. Screen time is also what produces a lot of male passivity and timidity, more than men listening to lectures from women about how we need to be nu males.
I also wonder if things like the decline in women’s domestic skills and the decline in men’s handiness have any effect.
I have never held any of my boyfriends to a handiness requirement, but I have praised my Dad for having those skills, as me being the daughter who holds and hands tools has been my job since forever, this seems to intimidate them, though that wasn’t my intention.
The women in the picture has most likely given birth. Your organs move around, your skin stretches, not everything goes back to exactly where it was, sometimes ever.
Not to mention that even if she hasn't, human biology tends to store a little fat there. These rail-thin Instagram types are not pictures of health.
I want to see the survey that resulted in the ‘every man thinks 20 year olds are the most attractive’ assertion.
I’ve seen it repeated so much, but I’m pretty sure it’s BS. Maybe if you gave a selection of cars and asked which one is the coolest, everyone would pick the sleek porsche or BMW… but very few people actually want one of those cars to drive around in. In reality most people will choose utes, 4wds, suv’s etc.
The same thing with women: In some way I understand that a fit 20 year old girl is probably about as close to physical perfection as women get, but the idea of even spending half an hour talking to one of them, let alone having some kind of relationship just seems utterly absurd to me. I don’t thing normal men are ‘shooting their shot’ with college girls, I think it’s just another piece of garbage social science done by people who don’t care what is actually true but need something catchy that will get published, in the hopes that it might advance their shitty, parasitic careers as humanities academics.
The survey is based on “attraction” which is not a choice, not “overall values” or “compatibility.” Tbh, it’s fairly obvious to everyone early 20s women are most attractive. Also, I’ve worked with lots of them over the years, and I don’t find them that hard to talk to or deal with really, there are personality tradeoffs between them and “older” women, but imo it’s not that big of a deal.
Yeah true, I'm only saying men find 18-25 year olds more attractive. Which is important but isn't everything. I think it's contributing factor to a decline in male interest in the dating market if the features that men consider attractive are becoming less common due to an increase in average age of population.
I think you're equivocating two forms of attractiveness, which is the point of my car analogy.
The platonic ideal of attractiveness (the 20 something) and the age appropriate 'I want to be with this woman' attraction to a particular person. The platonic ideal is important, but only insofar as it's expressed through the age-appropriate avatar of it.
Like I don't want a BMW, I wouldn't even accept one if someone tried to give me one, in the same way I don't want a hot 20 year old, even if one was willing.
But I do appreciate it if my work truck doesn't look like a piece of shit, in the same way that I appreciate a woman closer to my age looks fit and healthy etc.
So you're right in terms of men wanting women to be nice looking, and that decline in health etc. is destroying that. But you're wrong in saying that this means that they are maximally attracted to 20 year olds. 20 year olds are merely the platonic ideal of that vector of attractiveness, in the same way that I think a beamer is the distillation of automotive coolness. Even though I don't actually want one.
That's what I'm trying to get to, those surveys are always presented as 'all men want to shag 20 year olds', my point is that it isn't true, although in replying to you I've realised that I'm a lot closer to your position than I originally thought. Partially I was reacting to my past experience of having this survey shoved in my face by feminists 'proving' to me that all men are perverts.
It’s not a platonic ideals thing, dude. If sex bots were a thing and guys could make their own wives, the vast majority would be aesthetically designed to look around 20. They may have a personality / life experiences of people who are older but aesthetically yeah they're going to look in the age range described in the study.
The reason you feel it’s wrong, and are adjusting your standards, is due to social pressure. The reason you “wouldn’t go for one”—meaning a 20-year-old—is because of socialization. Odds are, your ancestors in a pre-feminist era probably would have. You can socialize people into doing or not doing something pretty easily. But you can’t really socialize attraction to the same degree.
Now, about that “survey shoved in my face by feminists” you mentioned: I’m going to go for the jugular here. The feminists are right about the nature of men. Do with that what you will—go down the path of “I would never fuck a 20-year-old, I’m old and that’s inappropriate.” Or do what I do and just say, “I don’t care what you think, bitch. Seethe.” But please, don’t try to water down the truth with this dual-attraction narrative.
It’s fine to pursue more realistic options with less competition. It’s not fine to pretend attention works differently than it does to conform to standards of a hostile society or virtue signal.
The problem with what you’re saying , is that attraction is not a choice. No one rationally thinks “this steak is a good source of iron and protein” their mouth just starts watering seeing and smelling one on a grill. Likewise, no one is consciously thinking “this woman’s appearance indicates strong genes resistance to disease and most of her fertility window is still open,” they just get a boner.
This has nothing to do with “platonic ideals” it’s just raw hindbrain. Shaming people out of this with silly terms like “age appropriate” won’t work. Most guys won’t approach young women because they know their odds are too poor, and in the modern surveillance state they can be public shamed and have their chances with less attractive “age appropriate” women, but that only changes behavior (preventing approaches) it doesn’t change the actual preference(young girls are hotter than older ones).
I mean, whom you wife is a multidimensional optimizing problem. But you can still admit that a Porsche or Ferrari is maximally cool. You may not WANT maximally cool at the expense of actually being able to seat a family or haul cargo, but that doesn’t diminish the coolness.
Yeah, so it shows that coolness is a shit standalone metric for predicting anything, which is the point I was making. That survey on attractiveness is always presented as 'all men ideally want to shag 20 year olds'.
Men probably wouldn't mind the body of a 20 year old on a mature woman though, is what I'm saying. Wants don't have to be logical. I want to have my cake and eat it too. But most days I say no to cake. But yes, I acknowledge that a 20 year old can feel so far removed from your own life stage that you feel gross for even talking to them with an intention to get them in bed. It's possibly quite disturbing talking to a chick who doesn't know what a 401k is and still talking about how to use AI to write her college essays. Some men want to just want to shag, well into middle age. Other men have higher expectations for their relationships.
I had the same reaction lol! Who someone is "theoretically most physically attracted to in a vacuum" isn't quite as directly related to their actual dating life as this article made it seem. It's a portion of it, but chemistry and compatibility are what real, long term relationships are made of 💯
Learn a skill, go meet people that share your interests, volunteer. Do anything except continuing to absorb the "content" put out by limp-dicked little boys who will point the finger at anything but their own shitty self as the reason they can't find happiness.
Sincerely, a progressive, conventionally attractive, conventionally masculine high earner who is very attracted to my wife, even though she is older than me, earns more, and isn't some kind of fucking barbie doll.
Yes, come on guys, the bar is *so low*. Literally every decent guy with a stable income I know and the capacity to be a normal adult without complaining about it has no trouble dating, at all.
Your comment is no different. You're merely role-playing as someone who's being helpful. This isn't a speech you're giving to some guy who needs it in a bar, face-to-face after a few drinks. You're just shitting out your annoyance onto a comment section. Nobody owes you respect here.
I like you. I don’t understand their complaints that we hate traditional masculinity — I think it’s fucking awesome! just so long as it doesn’t mean my rights don’t matter anymore.
I think ugliness, though relevant, is a smaller factor than a lack of social connectivity. People used to have relationships formed and bound by communities and religion. This occurred well into the past when other factors made people ugly in a lot of ways (disease, poverty, no convenient access to soap and perfume). Those 'ugly' people still had large families where even the attractive today often struggle.
If you’ve ever spent time on NYC subways, you quickly realize that most people are not good looking. They are not necessarily truly ugly, just lack anything that would make them attractive. I’ve noticed that the perception of attractiveness changes significantly when you get to know someone. I remember seeing a girl in school and immediately putting her in the ugly box. Then I got to know her and she was so beautiful inside it changed how I saw her outside. She had lots of friends. I bet she married a hot guy.
Nah, Artificial womb + State run child production if needed + genetic engineering is probably the way.
I generally prefer not to use state-run child production, but if I ditch ethics entirely, it's possible.
In the 21st century, you control people by appealing to their desires. Everyone's real God is desire these days. You just can't impose stuff to the population.
Seriously. I'm reading through these comments and thanking all the gods and goddesses that I am single. For all my flaws, I am infinitely better company than any of the single-celled organisms commenting here.
Many authors on Substack have approached this from different angles. I don’t have the time to mount much of an essay, but I would say most of the problems stem from basic biology and society’s hack of same. Each of the following topics is a multi-paragraph essay in itself.
Hypergamy - women look to ‘trade up’ wherever possible
Female intrasex competition - i.e. competing with other women
Liberal mind-virus - automatic rejection of conservatives
Women’s socialistic tendencies - biologically not programmed to be 'lone wolves’ or rebels
Feminization of men - goes against basic biology on both female and male sides
Male & Female p*rn - creation of unrealistic expectations
Girl boss / you can have it all culture - no you aren’t and no you can’t
You left out the culture of readily accessible porn- visual (aimed at men) and written (aimed at women). It desensitises the consumer to the subtleties of physical intimacy and creates unrealistic expectations.
Porn adds to the issue on the male side for sure. I’d add that readily available mass attention (social media) and resources from simps (also social media/OF/etc.) for women has added to this issue a lot.
"Hoeflation and broflation aren't just clever terms—they capture a deeper collapse in the traits and values that once brought men and women together." The success of this essay has brought us one step closer to AI dominance.
You should be embarrassed my dude. This is embarrassing. Being red-pilled in this day and age..... Just admit you don't actually like women (you just have a weird checklist given to you by other, sad, angry, lonely men) and will be forever alone in your "dating market".... MOOOOOOO
No one who knows them likes them. In the immortal words of Al Bundy, "Don't try to understand women, son. Women understand women, and they hate each other."
I’d guess that even with the prevalence of obesity and other traits that are less attractive, people now are on average far more attractive (and stay attractive for a longer period other life span) than humans for most of natural history. If you’ve ever seen the women of an aboriginal tribe - living your entire life in the elements, without sunscreen, bras, dermatologists, hairdressers/ hair dye, dentistry, modern medicine, nutrition, hygiene, etc - plus having a baby every year with no medical care to deal with any complications- ages a woman very quickly. (And I’m not even including the impact of more intensive interventions like plastic surgery).
Even compared to women in very recent history, contemporary women have an edge - have you ever seen all of the memes comparing the cast of the Golden Girls to that of Sex and the City at the same age? Agree that it would be even more stark if women today were less overweight, exercised more, and ate less processed food, but in on the whole I think modernity has been a net good for human attractiveness.
It was like red-pill bingo 😂😂 "dating market" - "high value" - "fat people are disgusting" - "it's just a fact that all men want 20 year olds, they are peak in every way"
Yeah, how dare someone try to back up their point with facts and statistics. Like you are supposed to logically do in any form of rational argumentation….
Don’t delude yourself. This is a community college level essay. No actual research or critical analysis being done here, just regurgitating previously articulated ideas and finding random studies on google to back it up.
I’ve been asserting this thesis for a while, that both sexes are less attractive to the other. One point you’re missing here is a general decline in social skills, driven by screen time. Screen time is also what produces a lot of male passivity and timidity, more than men listening to lectures from women about how we need to be nu males.
I also wonder if things like the decline in women’s domestic skills and the decline in men’s handiness have any effect.
Thank you! That paragraph had me seriously skeptical.
I have never held any of my boyfriends to a handiness requirement, but I have praised my Dad for having those skills, as me being the daughter who holds and hands tools has been my job since forever, this seems to intimidate them, though that wasn’t my intention.
That belly is disgusting and the simp who wrote that comment should be shamed.
You can just admit you are gay, Brother. It isn't 1950 anymore, we've grown up as a society (some of us anyway).
Encouraging people to care less about their health isn’t growing up, it’s remaining immature and toxically positive.
The women in the picture has most likely given birth. Your organs move around, your skin stretches, not everything goes back to exactly where it was, sometimes ever.
Not to mention that even if she hasn't, human biology tends to store a little fat there. These rail-thin Instagram types are not pictures of health.
That amount of belly is not unhealthy. The woman pictured is a healthy weight.
There's definitely a difference between us. You got that part right.
It’s really not that bad, people
Can’t go around sucking in lower abdomens all day 🤷
The bish isn’t fat, she’s just not sucking in her tummy.
Nah she fat
are you actually insane or what
It’s not that serious.
Chill out 😆
It's not disgusting. It's cute, and I'm tired of pretending it's not!
I bet you use that line on all your tender dates.
You're clearly a fat lumpen prole yourself 😂 you don't like the shaming you so richly deserve. Pathetic.
Pics or gtfo.
Defeated. Back to the anonymous abyss you go.
I want to see the survey that resulted in the ‘every man thinks 20 year olds are the most attractive’ assertion.
I’ve seen it repeated so much, but I’m pretty sure it’s BS. Maybe if you gave a selection of cars and asked which one is the coolest, everyone would pick the sleek porsche or BMW… but very few people actually want one of those cars to drive around in. In reality most people will choose utes, 4wds, suv’s etc.
The same thing with women: In some way I understand that a fit 20 year old girl is probably about as close to physical perfection as women get, but the idea of even spending half an hour talking to one of them, let alone having some kind of relationship just seems utterly absurd to me. I don’t thing normal men are ‘shooting their shot’ with college girls, I think it’s just another piece of garbage social science done by people who don’t care what is actually true but need something catchy that will get published, in the hopes that it might advance their shitty, parasitic careers as humanities academics.
The actual data costs money. But here's an article written about it. I also cited two more studies showing this phenomenon in the text. https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/22/men-regardless-age-will-always-attracted-women-early-20s-8718590/
The survey is based on “attraction” which is not a choice, not “overall values” or “compatibility.” Tbh, it’s fairly obvious to everyone early 20s women are most attractive. Also, I’ve worked with lots of them over the years, and I don’t find them that hard to talk to or deal with really, there are personality tradeoffs between them and “older” women, but imo it’s not that big of a deal.
Yeah true, I'm only saying men find 18-25 year olds more attractive. Which is important but isn't everything. I think it's contributing factor to a decline in male interest in the dating market if the features that men consider attractive are becoming less common due to an increase in average age of population.
I think you're equivocating two forms of attractiveness, which is the point of my car analogy.
The platonic ideal of attractiveness (the 20 something) and the age appropriate 'I want to be with this woman' attraction to a particular person. The platonic ideal is important, but only insofar as it's expressed through the age-appropriate avatar of it.
Like I don't want a BMW, I wouldn't even accept one if someone tried to give me one, in the same way I don't want a hot 20 year old, even if one was willing.
But I do appreciate it if my work truck doesn't look like a piece of shit, in the same way that I appreciate a woman closer to my age looks fit and healthy etc.
So you're right in terms of men wanting women to be nice looking, and that decline in health etc. is destroying that. But you're wrong in saying that this means that they are maximally attracted to 20 year olds. 20 year olds are merely the platonic ideal of that vector of attractiveness, in the same way that I think a beamer is the distillation of automotive coolness. Even though I don't actually want one.
That's what I'm trying to get to, those surveys are always presented as 'all men want to shag 20 year olds', my point is that it isn't true, although in replying to you I've realised that I'm a lot closer to your position than I originally thought. Partially I was reacting to my past experience of having this survey shoved in my face by feminists 'proving' to me that all men are perverts.
It’s not a platonic ideals thing, dude. If sex bots were a thing and guys could make their own wives, the vast majority would be aesthetically designed to look around 20. They may have a personality / life experiences of people who are older but aesthetically yeah they're going to look in the age range described in the study.
The reason you feel it’s wrong, and are adjusting your standards, is due to social pressure. The reason you “wouldn’t go for one”—meaning a 20-year-old—is because of socialization. Odds are, your ancestors in a pre-feminist era probably would have. You can socialize people into doing or not doing something pretty easily. But you can’t really socialize attraction to the same degree.
Now, about that “survey shoved in my face by feminists” you mentioned: I’m going to go for the jugular here. The feminists are right about the nature of men. Do with that what you will—go down the path of “I would never fuck a 20-year-old, I’m old and that’s inappropriate.” Or do what I do and just say, “I don’t care what you think, bitch. Seethe.” But please, don’t try to water down the truth with this dual-attraction narrative.
💯
It’s fine to pursue more realistic options with less competition. It’s not fine to pretend attention works differently than it does to conform to standards of a hostile society or virtue signal.
The problem with what you’re saying , is that attraction is not a choice. No one rationally thinks “this steak is a good source of iron and protein” their mouth just starts watering seeing and smelling one on a grill. Likewise, no one is consciously thinking “this woman’s appearance indicates strong genes resistance to disease and most of her fertility window is still open,” they just get a boner.
This has nothing to do with “platonic ideals” it’s just raw hindbrain. Shaming people out of this with silly terms like “age appropriate” won’t work. Most guys won’t approach young women because they know their odds are too poor, and in the modern surveillance state they can be public shamed and have their chances with less attractive “age appropriate” women, but that only changes behavior (preventing approaches) it doesn’t change the actual preference(young girls are hotter than older ones).
Oh, in that case I think there’s actually something wrong. I don’t feel like that. Do you consume pornography? Possibly that’s the difference.
I don’t consume pornography, but that has nothing to do with it. I honestly don’t believe you aren’t at all attracted to young women.
I mean, whom you wife is a multidimensional optimizing problem. But you can still admit that a Porsche or Ferrari is maximally cool. You may not WANT maximally cool at the expense of actually being able to seat a family or haul cargo, but that doesn’t diminish the coolness.
Yeah, so it shows that coolness is a shit standalone metric for predicting anything, which is the point I was making. That survey on attractiveness is always presented as 'all men ideally want to shag 20 year olds'.
Men probably wouldn't mind the body of a 20 year old on a mature woman though, is what I'm saying. Wants don't have to be logical. I want to have my cake and eat it too. But most days I say no to cake. But yes, I acknowledge that a 20 year old can feel so far removed from your own life stage that you feel gross for even talking to them with an intention to get them in bed. It's possibly quite disturbing talking to a chick who doesn't know what a 401k is and still talking about how to use AI to write her college essays. Some men want to just want to shag, well into middle age. Other men have higher expectations for their relationships.
I had the same reaction lol! Who someone is "theoretically most physically attracted to in a vacuum" isn't quite as directly related to their actual dating life as this article made it seem. It's a portion of it, but chemistry and compatibility are what real, long term relationships are made of 💯
Hey boys, if you are reading this trash... don't.
Learn a skill, go meet people that share your interests, volunteer. Do anything except continuing to absorb the "content" put out by limp-dicked little boys who will point the finger at anything but their own shitty self as the reason they can't find happiness.
Sincerely, a progressive, conventionally attractive, conventionally masculine high earner who is very attracted to my wife, even though she is older than me, earns more, and isn't some kind of fucking barbie doll.
Yes, come on guys, the bar is *so low*. Literally every decent guy with a stable income I know and the capacity to be a normal adult without complaining about it has no trouble dating, at all.
And who is great looking and who makes a million and who is 6ft 2 or taller. They have no trouble
I'm, uh, none of those, to put it mildly
Your comment is no different. You're merely role-playing as someone who's being helpful. This isn't a speech you're giving to some guy who needs it in a bar, face-to-face after a few drinks. You're just shitting out your annoyance onto a comment section. Nobody owes you respect here.
I like you. I don’t understand their complaints that we hate traditional masculinity — I think it’s fucking awesome! just so long as it doesn’t mean my rights don’t matter anymore.
Dude really pulled out the protractor and made some graphs justifying why he’s not getting laid.
Absolutely. This whole article is just manosphere garbage. I had to double check that I wasn't on Reddit.
I think ugliness, though relevant, is a smaller factor than a lack of social connectivity. People used to have relationships formed and bound by communities and religion. This occurred well into the past when other factors made people ugly in a lot of ways (disease, poverty, no convenient access to soap and perfume). Those 'ugly' people still had large families where even the attractive today often struggle.
If you’ve ever spent time on NYC subways, you quickly realize that most people are not good looking. They are not necessarily truly ugly, just lack anything that would make them attractive. I’ve noticed that the perception of attractiveness changes significantly when you get to know someone. I remember seeing a girl in school and immediately putting her in the ugly box. Then I got to know her and she was so beautiful inside it changed how I saw her outside. She had lots of friends. I bet she married a hot guy.
> Hoeflation and broflation aren't just clever terms—they capture a deeper collapse in the traits and values that once brought men and women together.
Great article, but I will not resist pointing out that ChatGPT wrote this line.
What did you think anti-humanism met nigga?
I’m up for the radical solution of a return to arranged marriages
Nah, Artificial womb + State run child production if needed + genetic engineering is probably the way.
I generally prefer not to use state-run child production, but if I ditch ethics entirely, it's possible.
In the 21st century, you control people by appealing to their desires. Everyone's real God is desire these days. You just can't impose stuff to the population.
Maybe we were always controlled by our desires, but we previously had higher desires.
Agree here actually.
I fucking wish we would have higher desires.
But like merely go back to the past is just untenable.
You have to talk about porn and addiction if you want to do justice to this topic
💯
The comments here proving the thesis of the piece; not one shred of optimism.
Seriously. I'm reading through these comments and thanking all the gods and goddesses that I am single. For all my flaws, I am infinitely better company than any of the single-celled organisms commenting here.
Many authors on Substack have approached this from different angles. I don’t have the time to mount much of an essay, but I would say most of the problems stem from basic biology and society’s hack of same. Each of the following topics is a multi-paragraph essay in itself.
Hypergamy - women look to ‘trade up’ wherever possible
Female intrasex competition - i.e. competing with other women
Liberal mind-virus - automatic rejection of conservatives
Women’s socialistic tendencies - biologically not programmed to be 'lone wolves’ or rebels
Feminization of men - goes against basic biology on both female and male sides
Male & Female p*rn - creation of unrealistic expectations
Girl boss / you can have it all culture - no you aren’t and no you can’t
You left out the culture of readily accessible porn- visual (aimed at men) and written (aimed at women). It desensitises the consumer to the subtleties of physical intimacy and creates unrealistic expectations.
Porn adds to the issue on the male side for sure. I’d add that readily available mass attention (social media) and resources from simps (also social media/OF/etc.) for women has added to this issue a lot.
How much porn are North Koreans watching
"Hoeflation and broflation aren't just clever terms—they capture a deeper collapse in the traits and values that once brought men and women together." The success of this essay has brought us one step closer to AI dominance.
You should be embarrassed my dude. This is embarrassing. Being red-pilled in this day and age..... Just admit you don't actually like women (you just have a weird checklist given to you by other, sad, angry, lonely men) and will be forever alone in your "dating market".... MOOOOOOO
No one who knows them likes them. In the immortal words of Al Bundy, "Don't try to understand women, son. Women understand women, and they hate each other."
DATING APP METRICS ARE FAKE AND GAY
I’d guess that even with the prevalence of obesity and other traits that are less attractive, people now are on average far more attractive (and stay attractive for a longer period other life span) than humans for most of natural history. If you’ve ever seen the women of an aboriginal tribe - living your entire life in the elements, without sunscreen, bras, dermatologists, hairdressers/ hair dye, dentistry, modern medicine, nutrition, hygiene, etc - plus having a baby every year with no medical care to deal with any complications- ages a woman very quickly. (And I’m not even including the impact of more intensive interventions like plastic surgery).
Even compared to women in very recent history, contemporary women have an edge - have you ever seen all of the memes comparing the cast of the Golden Girls to that of Sex and the City at the same age? Agree that it would be even more stark if women today were less overweight, exercised more, and ate less processed food, but in on the whole I think modernity has been a net good for human attractiveness.
This is so clearly written by a man. Using random facts to back up his shit opinions
It was like red-pill bingo 😂😂 "dating market" - "high value" - "fat people are disgusting" - "it's just a fact that all men want 20 year olds, they are peak in every way"
Yeah, how dare someone try to back up their point with facts and statistics. Like you are supposed to logically do in any form of rational argumentation….
Don’t delude yourself. This is a community college level essay. No actual research or critical analysis being done here, just regurgitating previously articulated ideas and finding random studies on google to back it up.